[01:35:35] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+v eriophora' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [04:44:27] Hi future friends [04:45:43] 46 seconds [04:46:11] really feeling the friendship [06:30:07] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o Deddly' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [06:31:02] i'm tired [06:45:44] What for? [09:24:03] hehe voodoo electronics vs curiousmarc, the voodoo electornics are winning [09:47:50] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o Deddly' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [15:00:02] S O [15:02:34] I'm attempting to complete the docking tutorial and whenever I burn retrograde to target (exactly when directed) I only end up with my perfect intercept (2km or less) becoming a hugely eccentric 400km orbit [15:03:15] of all the things in the game, this is the single most difficult process I have attempted [15:10:04] hm. then you're burning too much ;) I don't really have a good answer but I think you'd need to switch the navball to "target", then burn target-retrograde until the speed reads about 0m/s [15:17:51] Guest69325: When is directed? You should only try to zero your velocity with the target when you're effectively at the intercept [15:18:35] And the resulting orbit will then inherently be near-identical to the target's, because you have the same velocity and about the same position [15:40:01] packbart...that's exactly what I described doing. my speed relative to target omly dropped by 500m/s [15:41:17] flherne_ the tutorial says burn retrograde at 15km away, I'm unsure how to determine this distance [15:42:16] without measuring speed of target and the time it takes to orbit I know of no way to check your distance from target [15:44:06] also someone in a forum commented on using mechjeb and watching it rendezvous and dock to learn, I added it and it appears to interpret "rendezvous" as "crash into planet 2000km from target" [15:45:14] if you've selected the rondevouz target as the target, you should see a pink/magenta indicator that shows the direction and distance to the target [15:45:49] i can see that being a result of my lack of familiarity with mechjeb, I found that I had to take over for it when I tried to use the ascent assistnace [15:46:28] I was talking about vanilla [15:47:05] the magenta indicator shows my separation at target orbit, but that number never seems near to the actual separation of the vessels [15:47:27] so am I, I only tried mechjeb to try to learn from it [15:47:27] screenshot? [15:47:40] oh you can load those here? [15:48:00] hold on [15:48:05] same as in the forum, you'd need to use imgur.com or similar and post a link ;) [15:48:43] hah, progress. not the previous eve launcher failed to start. now i cant even isntall it [15:49:30] EVE Online destroys lives ;) [15:55:12] Guest69325: "burn retrograde at 15km away" sounds like a very bad idea to me [15:55:42] I've not played this tutorial, but I suspect you've misunderstood something -- otherwise it's just wrong :p [15:57:04] Guest69325: Wait until you (and the target vessel) are a few seconds before the intercept [15:57:55] At that point, your velocity relative to the target should be within like 100m/s or so if you're in vaguely similar orbits [15:58:39] Burn retrograde relative to the target until the relative velocity is 0 [15:59:01] Then turn to accelerate toward the target, or just use RCS, depending on the distance [16:10:39] making an imgur acct is taking ages [16:11:23] scott [16:12:44] Guest69325: you don't have to. they allow anonymous uploads [16:12:57] just click the "new post" button at the top [16:14:01] the tutorial said "for now, lets wait until we're about 15km away from the target. Once there make sure the navball is in target mode so it displays the right info, turn retrograde and burn at full throttle [16:14:17] also imgur said I had to make an acct wtf [16:15:03] ah, it redirected me and didn't tell me my images were posted [16:16:00] https://imgur.com/a/ebVdStp [16:16:04] I guess the intention of that step is to take almost the same orbit as the target before getting closer [16:16:14] https://imgur.com/a/qQwZYdE [16:16:33] when you get close, you should see an indicator outside of map view [16:16:33] that's the process there [16:16:44] I've never seen it [16:17:02] it always sends me too far from the target [16:17:28] the manuever in the first image looks good to me [16:18:35] the orange (or purple) markers are close together. that's the point where you need to align your orbit with the target's [16:18:39] this is frustrating as I have stations over seversal planets that need support for battery life and science , not to mention they each only have a few of my worst kerbals [16:18:52] yees, I tried to [16:19:23] i HAD been trying to dock with my own ship from an almost identical orbit [16:19:51] I found that I couldn't geet under 9 km so I tried the tutorial and it only led to more confusion [16:20:08] have you tried watching any video tutorials? [16:20:19] sorry to seem like such an idiot [16:20:20] well, 9km is fine for the first approach as long as you get your target-relative speed down [16:20:25] oh yes I have [16:20:37] scott manley's made it worse [16:20:42] docking is hard when you are new to it [16:20:48] i tried and I landed [16:20:55] with force [16:21:04] unintentionally [16:21:13] i remember my first docking took me an hour and was sweating when i finished it [16:21:26] althego thtat's what she said :/ [16:21:37] hm. putting a maneuver node at the intercept is tricky. nodes don't have "target-retrograde" handles [16:22:09] yeah [16:22:10] you could try and see what MechJeb does. with the situation in the last image, I'd use "match target velocity" from the maneuver planner menu [16:22:22] it _should_ not crash into the ground at that point [16:22:30] i figurwed switching sas to anti target/retrograde would work [16:22:46] oh you don't want to know [16:23:18] MJ has some trouble with the initial transfer at low orbits. sometimes it dips into the atmosphere. MJ does need supervision :) [16:23:31] i tried to learn from mechjeb and it expertly circularised at 40k above the target then turned hard into the atmosphere [16:23:57] I learned to basically never trust mj [16:24:08] yeah. but from this position: https://i.imgur.com/i4E69Gf.jpeg the "match velocities" maneuver should work [16:24:35] it puts a node at the intercept with the right vector to align the orbits [16:24:48] hm. [16:24:56] hehe this was funny, they found the engine problem for the gps falcon 9 launch, it was a manufacturing problem, and many other engines have the same issue [16:24:59] oh. wait [16:25:02] at least they got it in time [16:25:11] I think you're going the wrong way, maybe? [16:25:17] hm [16:25:19] oh...? [16:25:22] hehe [16:25:31] happened to me in many missions [16:25:34] the tutorial puts you in an orbit [16:25:40] so [16:25:46] when the target kerbal or debris was in retrograde [16:25:48] ah. hm. maybe I'm misinterpreting the orbit line [16:25:55] no, you're good [16:26:08] Action: packbart needs to check eyes :) [16:26:13] sorry for the added confusion [16:26:43] what I really waantesd to do was dock the two larger ring stations I have but I can't get past their tutorial so I figured I'd best not chance it [16:26:53] I was wondering about the 716m/s speed difference [16:27:09] I can't type to save my life [16:27:40] i did have a 3000m/s speed difference last time [16:27:48] pfff [16:27:55] so I figure I'm makingg progress [16:28:03] :) [16:28:07] cue facepalm [16:28:30] /runfacepalm [16:29:02] anyway, from the images, I'd say it should work. warp to the intercept or shortly before, burn target-retrograde until the difference gets close to 0m/s (it won't stay at 0, anyway, that's normal) [16:29:43] that's the bugger [16:29:56] then point at the target, burn a little, turn retrograde. maybe repeat. (if the planes are mis-aligned too much, that might not work well at the first attempt) [16:30:12] burning target retrograde is what keeps ruining my intercept [16:30:30] _unless_ your control point does not point along the thrust vector. but that shouldn't happen in a tutorial [16:30:54] I can reliably get less than a km separation at intercept [16:31:06] it's all the burning retrograde [16:31:30] but then it shouldnt be too hard [16:31:45] exactly so why is it [16:32:18] usually the hard part is to get a close enough rendezvous [16:32:56] hmph [16:32:59] if you have that, if you are just 1-2 km away, you have to cancel the target relative velocity, and therefore you will be in around the same orbit [16:33:21] my rendezvous is usually spot on [16:34:26] it's burning retrograde at 15km that undoes all the work I did to rendezvous. i tried burning when I was within visual range and I crashed [16:34:34] a a a [16:35:03] can't start KSP at the moment (still at work ;) so I can't look at the tutorial. I guess it's just a small thing that's off. hm. [16:35:20] HRM [16:35:32] you know what, i already finished work, i can start it up [16:35:53] it's probably just a command pod on a stick, isn't it? some other docking ports sticking out at other directions [16:36:16] if the command pod is not the "control from here" part, that's the only thing I can think of [16:36:49] but why would they mess with a rookie [16:36:52] eh [16:36:56] then your "retrograde" would not be the direction the engines would point at [16:37:04] on a podrcket [16:37:18] and hm [16:37:33] Guest69325: Do NOT burn retrograde at 15km, it won't work. "within visual range" should be fine, just try not to actually hit the target :p [16:38:06] *broadsides target, knocks both vessels into atmosphere* [16:38:10] lol [16:38:11] ha [16:38:13] ("hitting the target" is another thing, MechJeb ist very good at. it likes the 0.00km separation rendezvous ;) [16:38:28] I have done that once or twice [16:38:44] But it's unusual to get that precise a rendezvous [16:38:51] (unless you are using MJ) [16:38:58] wow lol I was kidding [16:39:02] I had a station that had a sectional like an american footbal field goal. mechjeb scored me an orbital field goal [16:39:07] geez lol [16:39:30] umaztu um? [16:40:23] i'm envisioning an enormous couch [16:41:01] maybe I'm not using the right terminology, I'm not a sports person [16:45:01] nothing strange here [16:45:06] pretty straightforward craft [16:45:11] maybe a a bit low twr [16:45:37] i can make a video of the docking in a few minutes [16:45:58] lol no the sectional [16:46:06] that's a type of couch [16:46:23] what's twr [16:46:28] oh duh nvm [16:46:51] I just started playing a few weeks ago [16:47:01] -_- [16:48:29] i stopped playing a few weeks ago [16:48:54] after a few encounters, you'll learn how to do it by feel [16:57:28] isn't 23 houurs of attempting the same thing "a few encounters" worth [16:58:10] to be fair I was burning at 15km as the tutorial instructed [16:58:38] and following directions appears to get you nowhere in this game [17:04:32] just give it some thought it plays out really easily once you understand the mechanics of the game [17:05:57] use a slightly lower orbit to catch up, a slightly higher orbit to slow down (relative to the target) [17:06:41] once you're within a few kilometers, you can just burn towards the target and then turn around and gradually slow down as you try to align your direction with the target [17:07:28] (align the two crosses on the indicator hub thingie at the bottom of the screen) [17:08:10] its not the most efficient way, but it is really easy if you have a few delta-Vs to spare [17:09:17] hehe i forgot to open the docking port. i usually use the normal ones [17:09:35] Action: a_flayer bumps [17:10:34] http://warpology.com/k/docking.mp4 [17:12:07] i'm kind of excited for KSP2 [17:12:36] as usual docking always happens on the night side [17:12:49] *sighs* [17:13:07] that's really my biggest problem--figuring out how to do stuff on the light side of planets [17:13:25] from aerobraking/landing on duna to returning from the mun, you know? [17:13:33] every time its on the wrong side lol [17:14:02] actually that was the primary reson of the timing of the apollo lunar orbit rendezvous. the lighting was really important [17:14:23] uh-huh [17:14:52] you definitely don't want to dock IRL at night, especially in the 1960s [17:15:10] nowadays its just computers anyway [17:15:11] but yeah [17:15:21] it is also important that the sun doesnt shine in the pilot's eyes [17:39:39] alright [17:40:36] i put this video there http://warpology.com/k/docking.mp4 [17:40:45] the tutorial dosnt contain any tricks [17:41:12] it looked like you were mostly trying to line up the maneuver, yet somehow you were just AT 0.5 m/s without doing anything? also you left one of your maneuvers with 16.3m/s left to burn, [17:41:31] there was a point where i wanted to target my craft with the other craft [17:41:43] hm? [17:41:45] and the context menu7 didnt want to show [17:41:56] so that both point towards each other [17:42:04] oh yes [17:42:37] and in the finishing part the important thing is to keep some velocity to finally close in on the target [17:42:54] so how were you at 0.5 m/s just coming out of map view [17:43:28] I didn't see you burn retro at all until tge last minute and you were at 0.5m/s already at that time' [17:44:08] ah the map view doesnt show the burn [17:44:21] somehow I've understood everything you said yet stilldon't quite understand what I'm doing wrong [17:44:28] oh [17:44:56] i'm feeling more and more the fool here [17:44:59] after 8:42 there is a small burn that changes the remaining speed from 4 to 0.5 [17:45:10] this is not simple [17:45:10] ok [17:45:16] even nasa failed it at the first time [17:45:21] but how did you get to 4 [17:45:46] cos I keep seeing digits in the 900's [17:45:57] 1300 max [17:46:54] and yeah but i'm used to getting the complex things and totally missing the simple ones so this is especially vexing [17:47:50] also is warpology something like imgur, or? [17:47:56] Guest69325: The velocity difference will get smaller the closer you are to the target [17:48:05] no, that is mine [17:48:11] The residual difference depends on how different your orbits are [17:48:34] easier to upload to my plaace thant to some other platform [17:48:47] i.e. if you're in an identical orbit to the target, and right next to it, the relative velocity is 0 [17:48:52] oh, brilliant [17:48:58] (if it wasn't 0, you'd be in a different orbit) [17:49:27] But if you're in an identical orbit but on exactly the opposite side of the planet, it's 2x [17:49:28] and that is the problem with docking. if you want to go closer, you will eb in a different, which will eventually take you farther [17:49:38] Because you're going in the opposite direction [17:50:17] so is this acceptable? [17:50:19] https://imgur.com/signin?redirect=%2Fa%2FpOo7hfS [17:50:45] eb? [17:50:45] hehe wrong link [17:50:47] Which is why you should never try maneuvering according to relative velocity unless you're right next to something -- the numbers just aren't helpful [17:50:47] be [17:51:04] (direction even more so) [17:51:05] https://imgur.com/a/pOo7hfS [17:51:15] Lord, it's got poo in. [17:51:30] ??? [17:51:44] +the link has got poo in [17:51:56] this is far from optimal rendezvous, that is why you have so high numbers [17:52:16] That'll be quite a high-Δv intercept with the massive radial change [17:52:19] It might work [17:52:21] you are going almost perpendicular to the target craft at the rendezvous point [17:53:01] and when you get close to the target [17:53:07] that's ambiguous, my readings are hgih bc I'm too far? or I'm too far from the craft at the point of rendezvous [17:53:16] Guest69325: neither :p [17:53:30] lovely... [17:53:33] seletc the target mnode as it is now, and burn towards the retrograde marker, which is at the bottom now [17:53:46] \ / [17:53:57] o _ o [17:53:57] but only when you are close enough [17:54:08] I see' [17:54:23] but the red bar says not enough fuel [17:54:28] ideally, you want the periapsis/apoapsis no more than 10-15 km apart from the target [17:54:32] Guest69325: You should aim for intercepts to be roughly parallel with the target orbit, so you don't need a huge and inefficient maneuver [17:54:44] Action: FLHerne can play KSP now :p [17:54:44] that is called the hohmann transfer [17:55:16] basically a very low delta v method [17:55:17] out, and back in, style of thing? [17:55:27] if I remember correctly [17:55:35] Is this the 'Docking' tutorial? [17:55:38] yes [17:56:10] so what do you do after the picture was taken, [17:56:11] ? [17:56:30] biggest issues are the instructions wanted me to burn retro to target at 15km and I'm a fucking idiot [17:56:44] I paused the game, what else? [17:57:10] yes but how do you try to do the maneuver [17:57:11] i would revert this game [17:57:32] it's a tutorial not an entire game [17:58:24] this has been three bloody hours over this lol [17:58:30] hehe [17:58:58] just launch into an orbit no more than 15 km divergent from the target [17:59:01] then you'll be OK [17:59:05] heeh [17:59:10] um? [17:59:13] this is not about that [17:59:17] Guest69325: So you've done the inclination burn ok? [17:59:26] yes [17:59:27] if you have different orbits already, how to meet up [18:00:13] my inclination is always 0.0 , I'm very exact about evrything, I just don't understand this [18:00:46] obviously something is missing what we dont get about what you do [18:00:54] xD here I go again I'll record it this time [18:01:19] circle around kerbin a few times to catch up [18:01:20] obviously something I don't get about what you're saying, more like [18:01:29] don't just burn directly towards the target [18:01:49] that is only working when you are a few km apart [18:02:03] i have advice coming from several directions and i'm unsure who to listen to [18:02:38] a a a a a a a a a [18:03:06] apropos of nothing [18:03:27] mechjeb is now mr.roboto [18:03:48] personal opinion [18:03:55] poorly stated [18:09:33] ok it may be a min I just forgot to aim at the maneuver [18:22:01] It actually does say the 15km thing http://www.flherne.uk/files/Screenshot_20201029_182153.png [18:22:05] wtf? [18:24:00] who reads these anyway [18:24:01] for the first approach, I think that's ok (at 50m/s, too) [18:25:56] my file is too large for imgur what do I use [18:26:50] I recorded what I've been doing [18:26:53] uhm, if it's too large for imgur, it's probably too large for us all, too. :D [18:26:58] Just scale it down [18:27:01] how [18:27:17] Guest69325: The rendezvous you ideally want is something like http://www.flherne.uk/files/Screenshot_20201029_181358.png [18:27:30] idk how to comp[ress te filetype [18:28:10] actually we dont need the beginning. we know you can get the rendezvous [18:28:16] the issue is, what you do after that [18:28:17] FLHerne_ well fucco mode [18:28:33] that's what I'm trying to show you [18:30:01] Althego: Well, that 90° one was going to be pretty awkward [18:30:16] Even if there's enough fuel for it, you'd have to get the timing spot-on [18:30:25] (or spend ages faffing about afterward) [18:30:45] I got a better one but idk where to put the compressed fiel' [18:30:48] file [18:30:55] How big is it? [18:31:03] heh [18:31:07] um [18:31:14] hehe [18:31:31] enormous [18:31:37] Uhh... what a question to pop into the channel on. c.c; [18:31:43] but I'm coming right at it [18:31:56] i'd say 40 degrees [18:33:19] planet.. moon? [18:33:32] https://imgur.com/a/Kgs5VvD [18:33:49] that's no moon [18:34:08] so nice rendezvous [18:34:11] what do you do next [18:34:28] Action: a_flayer giggles [18:34:36] I STILL DON'T KNOW I'M NOT PREPARED FOR FAILURE ;_; [18:34:41] .... sorta screen you running? 360? [18:34:42] ;-; [18:34:48] looks like 3 screen setup [18:34:52] yep [18:34:55] you're not going to make it though [18:35:00] 3 scren [18:35:05] you need more delta-v than you have available [18:35:21] yes, that is why follow the hohmann transfer [18:35:28] dont but as soon as you can [18:35:30] a_flayer party pooper -_- [18:35:39] but wait when you can do it with minimum fuel [18:35:56] how does one get it to work on 3? Whenever I flip to my secondary, KSP is like, 'you hate me, good bye' c_C [18:35:59] when you can get a rendezvous with the orbits touching [18:36:05] instead of intersecting like this [18:36:32] hmph [18:36:43] like this https://www.flherne.uk/files/Screenshot_20201029_181358.png [18:37:11] this is basically what i did too [18:37:20] that is why the rendezvous happened on the night side [18:38:30] trying to dock two ships in two elliptical orbits at different phase angles.. going to be some harsh burns there. Might help to first at least match orbits a bit more [18:42:00] changing phase angles is pretty DV intensive, unless the top of your orbit is already pretty high. [18:44:57] ugh... KSP withdrawal a thing? Been work'n a few things at friend's, don't have my big pc. :\ [18:46:39] ah well.. all the best.. [18:49:05] https://imgur.com/a/oFkZXwt [18:49:38] is this closer [18:49:58] not the comically extreme one, the other one [18:50:00] yes this looks right [18:50:19] is 17.7 too far [18:50:22] althoug h17.7 km is a bit much [18:50:43] yeah well it started at 90 [18:50:49] ;p [18:51:34] unsure how to close that distance. another few orbits? [18:52:54] also to "who reads these anyway" [18:52:56] so if you look at tit [18:52:58] I do [18:53:04] closely [18:53:07] up close [18:53:11] yes [18:53:15] are the orbits really toching? [18:53:19] You can usually get it close enough, just jiggle the node forward or backward and adjust the pro/retrograde accordingly [18:53:21] touching [18:53:33] if they do, just move the node a bit around [18:53:48] i finetuned from 90 to 17 and it wants to go no further [18:54:10] we not the arrows [18:54:13] but the node itself [18:54:17] they aren't [18:54:37] yes of course, the node itself [18:54:53] that's what I'm saying [18:55:00] HJKI9GJFGY [18:55:33] Shoe is back, but when will the other one drop [18:55:57] so if neither the pro and retrograde nor the moving of the node helps [18:55:59] lolol [18:56:25] then the normal and the anti normal could help [18:56:58] i was wary of those due to the inclination problems I had on early attempts [18:57:00] but in that case those would need a few m/s change only [18:57:13] Only if the inclination is off [18:57:23] And 17km would be quite noticeable [18:57:30] yes probably [18:57:31] inclination is 0.0 [18:57:36] that is nice [18:57:42] then you dont need those [18:57:54] then... [18:57:58] then the pro and retrograde and the movement of the node is the solution [18:58:21] Tweaking radial/anti-radial can be a quick-and-dirty way to adjust the phasing slightly [18:58:22] both handles send the distance further up [18:58:36] i would probably add a bit of prograde until the orbits intersect instead of touching, and move the node until i get a small enough encounter [18:58:40] same with the radial nodes [18:58:53] I've tried all of this [18:59:05] yet at 117.7 I remain [18:59:11] 17.7 [18:59:20] you know wht, not impoosible to salvage [18:59:21] Guest69325: You need to adjust multiple things at the same time sometimes, there's a knack :p [18:59:23] try it with this [18:59:26] big difference o.o [18:59:28] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+v eriophora' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [18:59:59] it just means you need to burn a bit more during the close up [19:00:13] and that's not unsafe? [19:00:27] i bet the loss would be under 100 m/s [19:00:28] Guest69325: Adjust one thing, see which direction it gets further in, then adjust a different parameter to counteract that, etc... [19:00:32] not that safety is a particularly kerbal virtue [19:03:05] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o raptop' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [19:04:25] down to 14.8 [19:05:42] correction, 12.6 [19:05:55] ... now what o.0 [19:06:49] Guest69325: I'd say make the burn, then play around with it afterward [19:06:52] 10k is the closet it gets now [19:06:59] yay [19:07:04] that is ok [19:07:13] you just need to cruise towrds it a bit longer [19:07:13] Unless you execute it perfectly, there'll be some error to correct anyway [19:07:18] which means more correction burns [19:07:20] thanks for helping for so long [19:10:38] hahahahahaaaa I accidentally burned for a few seconds without setting myself to target the maneuver and my margin of error took me down to 6.8km [19:10:48] hehe [19:11:23] I couldn't have done better myself [19:11:28] obviously [19:11:34] x3 [19:11:53]